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original thirteen

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original thirteen

Postby lioconvoy » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:10 pm

i am wondering about the original thirteen transformers created by primus after the covanant of zodiac transformers.

i know that we are unsure of all the members as of now.

the members that i know of are;
prima
logos prime
vector prime
nexus prime (thanks for the save sabrblade)
the fallen

am i missing any other confermed members out?

who else do people think are members of the thirteen?
Last edited by lioconvoy on Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: original thirteen

Postby Wing Saber » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:17 pm

Wish i could help, but the only one i know of is Vector Prime. sorry.
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Re: original thirteen

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:27 pm

lioconvoy wrote:the members that i know of are;
nexus maximus
That's "Nexus Prime". The name of the toy was changed for his fictional appearances due to the crudeness of the name "Nexus Maximus".
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Re: original thirteen

Postby lioconvoy » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:21 pm

ok so it's time to update this thred i think.

i was interested to note the 13 members.

furst off prima,
next logos prime
after him, nexus prime
then vecter prime
then alpha trion prime (i had speculated for some time he could have been and i'm not the only one)
last but not least the fallen aka megatronus prime

the origin of megatron's name is intreeging and quells a lot of fanon ideas. the gladiator taking the name of 1 of the 13 is pritty good.

the fallen being magatronus is quite an apt name. it sutes him. and although the fallen sounds pritty cool its nice to know his true name.

the one thing i still ponder is if maximo is one of the 13. ferman said he was but the story thats from isn't exactly cannonised. and we still wait with baited breath for the other primes i'm sure
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Re: original thirteen

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:35 pm

:roll:

I had forgotten about this thread. I kinda wish hadn't been revived yet, but what's done is done and I haven't any real reason to do anything but contribute to the conversation. :roll:

When I was at BotCon this year, Hasbro had a panel where they revealed and spoke of several members of the original 13. The ones discussed speicifically and confirmed to be memebers were:
  • Alpha Trion
  • Liege Maximo
  • Vector Prime
  • Prima
  • Megatronus Prime (later known as "The Fallen")

I was surprised to have seen that Nexus Prime was left out when he was revealed to be one of them as well.

Though, Logos Prime's absense wasn't as surprising since he's no longer considered to be a confirmed member as Hasbro has decided to remain vague on his status in a recent Q&A.

Alpha Trion was another surprise, since he's not a Prime ("Alpha Trion Prime" lolwut?) and has a bit of a conflict with him being a member. Each of the 13 are Multiversal Singularities who are the same in all realities. This would mean that the Alpha Trions of the various fiction (G1 cartoon, G1 comics, Cybertron comics, etc.) would be the same guy. No problem there, since they're all very similar to each other. HOWEVER, Animated Alpha Trion is different from the others in that he is not a historian and hasn't a connection to Vector Sigma. To make things even MORE confusing, there exists a Shattered Glass Alpha Trion. A Shattered Glass Alpha Trion!!! How can this guy exist if Alpha Trion is a Multiversal Singularity?!!! He is evil, homicidal, insane, and much more that the good Alpha Trions AREN'T!!! This behavior is not because he exists in the Shatteredverse. He acted like this in Axiom Nexus, and the good G1 Cliffjumper maintained his normal personality when he crossed into the Shatteredverse. It isn't a matter of which world one is in, it's that this Alpha Tion is just flat out naturally evil. This is a direct violation of how Multversal Singularities act. There cannot be good and evil versions of the same being. It is one being who is either all good or all evil regardless of what world he's in. Alpha Trion being one of the 13, without any given explanation of the above contradictions, just gives off unending headaches. :cry:


And THEN there's the whole "Seven Primes" ordeal from ROTF, when other adaptations of the film (books, comics, novel, etc.) refer to there being 13 Cybertronians who formed the first of the "Dynasty of Primes". :?:

My head hurts.
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“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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Re: original thirteen

Postby lioconvoy » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:24 am

ok without over complicating things and still maintaining nexus and logos we know 7 of the 13.
thanks sabrblade about conferming the lege for me.

prima, maximo, megatronus, vecter, vecter, alpha trion, logos and nexus

perhaps in the rotf universe these 7 were the only 7 remaining primes and perhaps the fallen killed the other 6 before traveling to earth.
or perhaps jetfire could simply be senile and only remember or only know about 7 of the primes.

as for trion having a shattered glass encarnation it is quite perplexing.
as he is the guardian of things that have passed and things that are yet to come he needs to blend in with what ever universal plane he enhabits and takes on the role for that world.
perhaps he is forced to act in this way to protect the covanant of primus?

we need mor information before we can answer that question.

do we know the jobs of the other primes.
vecter/space time
nexus/energon
megatronus/entraphy etc
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Re: original thirteen

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:54 pm

lioconvoy wrote:prima, maximo, megatronus, vecter, alpha trion, logos and nexus
Logos Prime is no longer considered a confirmed member of the 13. When asked about his status as one, Hasbro chose to remian vague about him, as they did not want to give away anything they had planed for the 13 (meaning that Logos Prime could or could not be in their plans, we don't know). Plus, since he wasn't created by Hasbro people, it's even more of a mystery whether he is or not.

lioconvoy wrote:perhaps in the rotf universe these 7 were the only 7 remaining primes and perhaps the fallen killed the other 6 before traveling to earth.
or perhaps jetfire could simply be senile and only remember or only know about 7 of the primes.
But here's the thing though, different interpretations of the events of that movie vary in regards to these guys. The movie itself says there were 7, but The Fallen's bio on the DVD/Blu-Ray bonus material says there were 13. The novel says there were 13. The IDW comic adaptaion also says 13, but a later IDW comic says 7. Other IDW comics set in the movieverse also say 13. In an attempt to rectify this, a Hasbro Q&A said that only 7 of the 13 were Primes, but there had already been other pieces of fiction that explicitly stated that all 13 were Primes.

The whole "7 vs. 13" deal is just one big inconsistency after another. :cry:

lioconvoy wrote:as for trion having a shattered glass encarnation it is quite perplexing.
as he is the guardian of things that have passed and things that are yet to come he needs to blend in with what ever universal plane he enhabits and takes on the role for that world.
perhaps he is forced to act in this way to protect the covanant of primus?
He still acts evil in Axiom Nexus, which is outside of the Shatteredverse. This Alpha Trion, unlike the others, is naturally evil. Plus, I don't think he had the same role as the other Alpha Trions, as he plotted and schemed to kill both SG Optimus and SG Megatron so that he (along with SG Rodimus) could conquer Cybertron, Earth, and all.

lioconvoy wrote:we need mor information before we can answer that question.
Yes we do!

lioconvoy wrote:do we know the jobs of the other primes.
vecter/space time
nexus/energon
megatronus/entraphy etc

Let's see.
  • Alpha Trion - historian and archivist who documents the past, present, and future in the Covenant of Primus with the Quill.
  • The Liege Maximo - "the ultimate counterforce of good" (so says the TFWiki)
  • Vector Prime - guardian of space and time
  • Prima - the First (first transformer, first Prime, first bearer of the Matrix of Leadership - which was originally the jewwl on the hilt of his sword, the Star Saber)
  • Megatronus Prime/The Fallen - guardian of entropy/"the 'Judas' of the group" :P
  • Nexus Prime - guardian of Rarified Energon
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“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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Re: original thirteen

Postby lioconvoy » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:57 pm

perhaps it is in the covanant of primus for trion to turn out evil?
i know it's a long shot but so was including him in the furst place.

the 7 vs the 13 in the movie continuity confused me quite a lot with all different enterpritations.
perhaps we will be given a better reasoning for this in later fiction, perhaps the third movie?
but that seems quite unlikely.

perhaps in the movie continuity there were the original 13 but they came in waves. perhaps the furst 6 and then perhaps the 7 primes.
perhaps even the 7 primes didn't know of the other 6.
after all, the movie never explisitly stated that there wern't 13 originals. it only stated the dinasty of primes. the other 6 could simply not matter as "only a prime can kill the fallen"

i'm sure we will findout at sum point.
although there is the option that maximo wasn't stated because he left his brethrin and sacluded himself, vecter vanished in to space time, alpha trion kept his head down etc etc

i bet this hole issue with removing logos, adding trion and the issue of 7 will all be chaucked up to the unicron singularity wich isn't in any way a good thing.
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Re: original thirteen

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:37 pm

lioconvoy wrote:after all, the movie never explisitly stated that there wern't 13 originals. it only stated the dinasty of primes. the other 6 could simply not matter as "only a prime can kill the fallen"
But the Seven Primes =/= the Dynasty of Primes. The Seven Primes were its founding members, but the whole Dynasty spanned several generations beyond the existence of the original 7 (or 13 or whatever). Optimus Prime just happens to be the last surviving descendant of the past dynasty members (not solely including the first 7).

lioconvoy wrote:although there is the option that maximo wasn't stated because he left his brethrin and sacluded himself, vecter vanished in to space time, alpha trion kept his head down etc etc
Huh? What's this all about?

lioconvoy wrote:i bet this hole issue with removing logos, adding trion and the issue of 7 will all be chaucked up to the unicron singularity wich isn't in any way a good thing.
Well, Logos Prime wasn't actually ever confirmed to be one in the first place. It was only assumed such because Vector Prime said that Logos Prime was one of his own: an "Ancient". What he meant by this was never explicitly stated, but it was implied (by fans) that he meant the original 13. This was backed by other media, even if it still hasn't technically been outright confirmed yet. This little hole of not blatantly saying "Yes" or "No" is what's keeping him from confirmed either way.
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“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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Re: original thirteen

Postby lioconvoy » Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:04 am

what i mean by what i said was perhaps the reasoning behind mentioning the 7 is that we know that alpha trion in the movie continuity is considered a historian. perhaps that means that the fallen didn't consider him dangerous so left him to his work.
maximo operates from the outer fringe of the galaxy. perhaps like trion he wasn't considered relivant to the fallens plan. perhaps the lege didn't cair ither way, after all he is the anthasis of evil.
as for vecter prime, he operates from space time, perhaps during the slaughter he was in another space time.

although what seems mor likely is that we will get fiction someware down the line that mentions a mass sacrifice to protect the matrix meaning that the movie continuity will have simply shown us this furst.

i am awair of the dinisty spanning a longer generation of time than the 7, but there had to have been mor primes hidden for the line to continue up to optimus.

after all, the fallen would have made it his duty to slaughter any prime he found so that his plan could come to thruision.

on another note, thanks to exidus i've had a thaut.
megatron's name came from megatronus prime aka the fallen. perhaps galvatron originates from a member of the 13. perhaps galvatronus prime?
maybe this is the lege maximo's true name?
it seems likely from the origin of megatron's name
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