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When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby bowspearer » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:56 am

ironrod prime wrote:werent the headmasters and targetmasters original desighns also the monsterbots and pretenders


I knew the Headmasters and Targetmasters were, but I was trying to work out whether any original designs were in the 1986 line as well.
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:12 am

bowspearer wrote:So in was it in 1986 or 1987 that we saw the first toys which had been fully intended to be Transformers, going right beck to the intial concept artwork stage? If it was 1986, which toys were they?
It was 1986, and all the ones I listed before weren't designed for anything other than Transformers.

Though, looks like I may have been in error about Trypticon, as his toy might have been intended for the same "Jizai Gattai" toyline as Metroplex and the first four Scramble City Combiners.
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“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby bowspearer » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:44 am

Sabrblade wrote:
bowspearer wrote:So in was it in 1986 or 1987 that we saw the first toys which had been fully intended to be Transformers, going right beck to the intial concept artwork stage? If it was 1986, which toys were they?
It was 1986, and all the ones I listed before weren't designed for anything other than Transformers.

Though, looks like I may have been in error about Trypticon, as his toy might have been intended for the same "Jizai Gattai" toyline as Metroplex and the first four Scramble City Combiners.


How many of those were Floro Dery's designs? They could be ruled out straight away as original designs of course - I'm just curious as to how much of a crossover there was with the 86 line (considering that pre-tf designs were used until at least 1988).
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:12 pm

bowspearer wrote:How many of those were Floro Dery's designs? They could be ruled out straight away as original designs of course - I'm just curious as to how much of a crossover there was with the 86 line (considering that pre-tf designs were used until at least 1988).
Wheelie
Springer
Blurr
Hot Rod
Kup
Rodimus Prime
Wreck-Gar
Gnaw
Cyclonus
Scourge
Galvatron

At least those. The rest of the ones I listed could have been his designs too, but for the show instead of the movie.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby bowspearer » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:49 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
bowspearer wrote:How many of those were Floro Dery's designs? They could be ruled out straight away as original designs of course - I'm just curious as to how much of a crossover there was with the 86 line (considering that pre-tf designs were used until at least 1988).
Wheelie
Springer
Blurr
Hot Rod
Kup
Rodimus Prime
Wreck-Gar
Gnaw
Cyclonus
Scourge
Galvatron

At least those. The rest of the ones I listed could have been his designs too, but for the show instead of the movie.


That brings up some interesting possibilities in terms of Pre-TF designs. The other Triple Changers were probably designs, as they aesthetic of Sanstorm, Octane and broadside fits both Astrotrain, Blitzwing and the jet-copter triple changer from Diaclone.

Ratbat's design at the very least looks like it was originally intended for the Micro-Change line, parituclarly when you look at the body construction compared to Laserbeak. It's tempting to say it was just inspiration, but then look at Slugfest and Overkill's designs in 87 which have a completely different aesthetic to them, suggesting the Ratbat's origins are as a discarded Microchange cassette robo design.

Meanwhile the Battle Chargers (or essentially Battle Charger mould) seems to almost be a fusion of the Jumpstarters and Change Attackers, and seem to have that same design aesthetic to them.

The Autobot cassettes are interesting too when you look at Steeljaw's leg construction which makes them an each way bet.

Finally there are the Predacons which are interesting. We know they were intended to originally be released in Transformers as the Anibots, but is that their true origins? What makes me wonder is that if you look at everything post 86 movie; Floro's influence tends to be there with more of a futuristic aesthetic as opposed to a classic mecha styling. While the Predacons do look futuristic, how much of that is due to their colour schemes? You strip back the colours and you actually have something fairly similar in aesthetic to the Dinobots, and nowhere near as "out there" as the Machine Dragon for example.
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:57 pm

There's also two things to keep in mind.

In 1986, the movie characters' toys whose designs were based on Floro Dery's work, created a new toy scale that was much larger than the established scale of the previous Diaclone and Micro Change molds. The 1986 triple changers were designed for this new scale instead of the smaller scale of Astrotrain and Blitzwing.The Predacons also seem to be in this larger scale.

And, the same people and toy engineering technology that were used in Diaclone and Micro Change were carried over for Transformers, So toys like Ratbat could have been TF-original designs using the same toy engineering of the Micro Change molds. Same goes for the Technobots, Terrorcons, and Seacons using the same toy engineering as the four Jizai Gattai molds.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby bowspearer » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:21 pm

Sabrblade wrote:There's also two things to keep in mind.

In 1986, the movie characters' toys whose designs were based on Floro Dery's work, created a new toy scale that was much larger than the established scale of the previous Diaclone and Micro Change molds. The 1986 triple changers were designed for this new scale instead of the smaller scale of Astrotrain and Blitzwing.The Predacons also seem to be in this larger scale.


That deals with the engineering stage of things though; not the actual concept design stage. If the 86 Triple Changers (with the exception of Springer) were unused Diaclone design concepts (and the style of them does suggest that) then I'd imagine that when it came time to sculpt and engineer them, that it would have been done to that larger scale, as the engineering aesthetics had changed over. The same could just as easily be said for the Predacons.

Astrotrain actually lends credence to this hypothesis for one reason. If you look at the triple changers that had shown up in Diaclone, they were military based, rather than civilian based. Then you get Astrotrain showing up in the TF 85 line which compared to the previous theme, sticks out like a sore thumb. Octane at the very least, seems to fit in with the theme introduced by Astrotrain, suggesting that at least those two could easily have been in different stages of development and originally intended for the 1985 Diaclone line. Sandstorm also would fit with this hypothesis. It's because of this that it would be really interesting to see what designers working for Takara (especially those who came up with the design concepts in question had to say about exactly when they were done).

Sabrblade wrote:And, the same people and toy engineering technology that were used in Diaclone and Micro Change were carried over for Transformers, So toys like Ratbat could have been TF-original designs using the same toy engineering of the Micro Change molds.


Except that the design aesthetic of Ratbat is radiaclly different to every single Decepticon Cassette TF that followed the 85 line, suggesting that the design is originally from much earlier.

Sabrblade wrote: Same goes for the Technobots, Terrorcons, and Seacons using the same toy engineering as the four Jizai Gattai molds.


Again this is the same situation, only the flip side of it. There's no question that the 87 and 88 combiner teams used the standardised Jizai Gattai combining system (more than likely because it had become standardised - even Monstructorr used it in a limited sense). However when you look at the design aesthetics there; they're clearly post Floro Dery - especially when you compare the Seacons to the Dinobots, and for that matter, the Predacons.
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:49 pm

Regard the Triple Changers, there were four designs planned for Diaclone, while only two made it to the final stage of release, which were No. 1 Jet Fighter Type (Blitzwing/Overcharge mold) and No. 2 Helicopter Type (a jet/helicopter toy that wasn't carried over into Transformers).

The other two Diaclone Triplechanger designs that were unreleased in Diaclone were Astrotrain's design and Armada Dropshot's design (who was never released in any toy form).

None of the 1986 Triple Changer designs were any of the four Diaclone designs.

As for Ratbat, what's to stop him from having been the last one to use the older design aesthetic before switching to a new one in 1987? Don't forget that Slugfest and Overkill were 1987 toys.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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