Page 3 of 5

Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:44 pm
by Sabrblade
ironrod prime wrote:no i mean what makes you think theese subs arent acurate
Because I have watched both the Metrodome DVD subs and the TV-Nihon fansubs. In the parts during which the Shout! Factory subs don't agree with either of those two, the two of them do mostly agree with each other (take the quoted example in the first post, for example).

Plus, the TFWiki articles of each episode have been updated recent with this very foreign localization information by one of the admins who is fairly well-versed in Japanese.

Not to mention that I can understand a little of what's being spoken in the Japanese dialogue to tell that these bits of subtitle lines don't match up with what's being said.

Finally, it should be immensely obvious that none of these characters ever say, "Scrap", "Light our darkest hour", "cycles", "clicks", "sparks", "Deployers", "Phase Six", "Autojerk", "Decepticreep", "the Pit", "the Inferno", "the AllSpark", etc. etc. These terms were all forced in for no other reason than fanwank.

Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:16 pm
by Sabrblade
Look, the whole point of subtitles is to tell us what is being said. I can understand translation errors and cultural differences, yes. Those are going to happen regardless. But it's the changes that are made intentionally that bug me. The changes that erase the original meaning of a line of dialogue to say something entirely different, for the sake of fanwank. Alpha Trion does not say "Light our darkest hour" in the Japanese version, yet the subtitles still wrote that.

We as a loyal fanbase have waited 25 years to see these series released on DVD in America. We don't deserve anything less than the best possible translation. No one does, in fact. The whole anime industry strives to provide the best possible quality for their subtitle translations. Tons of other toyetic anime, even the less popular/less successful ones, get accurate subtitles for their DVD releases. Why should these DVDs be deprived of the same treatment?

Again, the whole point of these subtitles is to tell us what is being spoken by these characters, yet they're getting the wrong messages across. I can't believe that anyone would like being wrongly told one thing by someone when they really mean something else entirely.

Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:59 pm
by TriPredRavage
First and foremost, before I really throw my hat into the ring here, can we talk about how all of this:
Sabrblade wrote:And what's more, this isn't the only case of this kind of change. Fortress was given the name "Cerebros" in the subs, when he is an entirely different identity from G1 Cerebros. He's as much Cerebros as Ginrai is Optimus.
Sabrblade wrote:They're gonna be using the English names for characters in Masterforce who are entirely different characters from their American counterparts. Like, the Decepticon Pretenders Blood, Gilmer, and Dauros are gonna be subbed as "Bomb-Burst", "Submarauder", and "Skullgrin". Though they said that some like Ginrai and Minerva (who do have Western counterparts) will be keeping their Japanese names, but there's no telling where they'll draw the line with the others. :(
Sabrblade wrote:And they're renaming the Godmasters as being "Powermasters", which is an entirely different concept whose only similarity lies within aesthetics rather than function. #-o

For Victory, Deszaras is using his "Deathsaurus" name, which is still irksome considering how he's not even a dragon or dinosaur! He's a bird kaiju!
is like MY fanboy dream and your fanboy nightmare? I mean, how many times have you and I bickered and fought, and berated each other over the very argument of the Japanese and English characters and terms being interchangable? I was honestly dreading these DVD releases simply for the fact that I thought for sure they were going to be completely faithful to the Japanese versions and stick to all of the characters' names. Seeing all of this almost makes me interested in if Shout!Factory will release subtitled versions of Beast Wars II and Beast Wars Neo. ALMOST... :lol:

Sabrblade wrote:And then there's the Breastforce. *facepalm* Since they're too paranoid to use this term, they've crafted a cover up term in the form of "Chestforce". :roll:

Okay, tme to get serious. I remember when I saw this from the SDCC coverage. This is handsdown the STUPIDEST change. I, personaly, always felt that if "Breastforce" was going to be too risque for the series than they should have gone with BEASTforce, because I always just thought that would have worked well, considering they're all animal themed and whatnot. Eitherway, we're comparing apples to oranges. In Beast Wars, they refered to the torso armor as "chestplate" and "torso plates" (both said by Rattrap, actually), so the term Chestforce is actually completely appropriate, it just sounds so STUPID!

First of all, I have no problem at all with the subtitles changing certain characters' names provided that the characters have 100%, absolultely without a doubt, completely and indisputably confirmed English names. Calling Rodimus "Hot Rod" and Deszaras "Deathsaurus" doesn't irk me at all. Because they are their official names. Personally, I don't mind the name changes, and I think really only diehard JapansFans and Simon Furman are going to call foul on the distinction.

I won't lose sleep over them throwing in terms like "slag" and "scrap" and "pit/inferno" and stuff like that solely because these are Transformers, and Transformers are mostly marketed towards kids. In Japan, it tends to be that they're a little more loose on what sort of words can be said in their children's programing. So, that I can live with.

BUT EVERYTHING ELSE IS GARBAGE. Removing some dialogue, changing the translations of the lines just for fanservice purposes (i.e. "light out darkest hour") is COMPLETELY unacceptable. To be fair, I'm sure in some of the U3 dubs, there are sufficient changes in the dialogue. But dubs are different. A subtitle release is made on the principal that what the subtitles say are accurate to what is being said. Like I said, the minor changes in terms and stuff like that, largely forgiveable. Outright changing the dialogue, thereby changing the meaning and story (to an extent) of what is happening? Absolutely unforgivable.

Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:38 pm
by Sabrblade
TriPredRavage wrote:is like MY fanboy dream and your fanboy nightmare? I mean, how many times have you and I bickered and fought, and berated each other over the very argument of the Japanese and English characters and terms being interchangable? I was honestly dreading these DVD releases simply for the fact that I thought for sure they were going to be completely faithful to the Japanese versions and stick to all of the characters' names. Seeing all of this almost makes me interested in if Shout!Factory will release subtitled versions of Beast Wars II and Beast Wars Neo. ALMOST... :lol:
I can probably get passed some of the Americanized name changes (such as those for The Headmasters series characters and Deszaras/Deathsaurus), but the rest are unique characters who have their own separate identities from their American counterparts. Why, even some of them have made appearances in Western media under their original names.

And Powermasters already exist in the Japanese cartoon continuity, alongside Godmasters as an aesthetically similar concept but still very different in nature. Calling the Godmasters "Powermasters" erases their uniqueness from that group.

TriPredRavage wrote:Okay, tme to get serious. I remember when I saw this from the SDCC coverage. This is handsdown the STUPIDEST change. I, personaly, always felt that if "Breastforce" was going to be too risque for the series than they should have gone with BEASTforce, because I always just thought that would have worked well, considering they're all animal themed and whatnot. Eitherway, we're comparing apples to oranges. In Beast Wars, they refered to the torso armor as "chestplate" and "torso plates" (both said by Rattrap, actually), so the term Chestforce is actually completely appropriate, it just sounds so STUPID!
Exactly! They changed the Breastforce to the "Chestforce" out of fear that the parents of the kids watching this will get angry at Hasbro, yet kids are not the people who are going to be buying, much less watching, these things. No matter how wide an audience they try to make these appeal to, these DVD will only ever appeal to a niche market. No little kid is going to have the patience and attention span to watch so many episodes of a cartoon that's not even in the same language as the viewer, much less even take the time to read and keep up with the subtitles. This could have easily been rectified by marketing them to the "Ages 13 and Up" crowd just like every other uncut anime series is.

TriPredRavage wrote:First of all, I have no problem at all with the subtitles changing certain characters' names provided that the characters have 100%, absolultely without a doubt, completely and indisputably confirmed English names. Calling Rodimus "Hot Rod" and Deszaras "Deathsaurus" doesn't irk me at all. Because they are their official names. Personally, I don't mind the name changes, and I think really only diehard JapansFans and Simon Furman are going to call foul on the distinction.
See above what I wrote about the Americanized name changes.

TriPredRavage wrote:I won't lose sleep over them throwing in terms like "slag" and "scrap" and "pit/inferno" and stuff like that solely because these are Transformers, and Transformers are mostly marketed towards kids. In Japan, it tends to be that they're a little more loose on what sort of words can be said in their children's programing. So, that I can live with.
What bothers me about these is that, since none of them are present in any if the spoken dialogue, each of them is unnecessarily forced in.

"Scrap" as an expletive has never been used until the Prime cartoon came, so it's still fairly recent compared to the other more known TF lingo and thus seems out of place when used over more rational phrases like "darn", "blast", "curses", "drat", etc.

"Pit/Inferno" is really unnecessary considering how it doesn't appear in the subs until nearer to the series' end, and all episodes prior to their first uses very openly used "Hell" (meaning the place, not the swear) without hesitation.

Instead of saying "thank the AllSpark", they could have said "thank goodness", since something as specific as the AllSpark is a word the Japanese wouldn't just ignore in any context. But since it isn't spoken here, its presence feels unnecessarily forced in, like many other TF terms.

"Phase Six" comes from the IDW G1 comics, but has no real meaning in the cartoon continuity. Thus making it nonsensical.

All the cassettes are called "Deployers", which isn't even a G1 term!

Plus, if these DVDs are to supposed to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, it'd be wiser to use more Laymen's Terms so as to make them more understandable, considering how some who aren't accustomed to watching subtitles find difficulty in understanding them already.

TriPredRavage wrote:BUT EVERYTHING ELSE IS GARBAGE. Removing some dialogue, changing the translations of the lines just for fanservice purposes (i.e. "light out darkest hour") is COMPLETELY unacceptable. To be fair, I'm sure in some of the U3 dubs, there are sufficient changes in the dialogue. But dubs are different. A subtitle release is made on the principal that what the subtitles say are accurate to what is being said. Like I said, the minor changes in terms and stuff like that, largely forgiveable. Outright changing the dialogue, thereby changing the meaning and story (to an extent) of what is happening? Absolutely unforgivable.
THANK YOU!!!

Though, I will say, to be fair, that these changes occur for only a few lines, rather than for entire scenes and such. But they are still very, VERY, VERY noticeable and still detract from the original meanings of those lines of dialogue. So, I'd say these subs are about 93% accurate. But that's still 7% of unnecessary butchering at work.

Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:36 pm
by TriPredRavage
Sabrblade wrote:I can probably get passed some of the Americanized name changes (such as those for The Headmasters series characters and Deszaras/Deathsaurus), but the rest are unique characters who have their own separate identities from their American counterparts. Why, even some of them have made appearances in Western media under their original names.
Okay, here's an important matter in this aspect of our discussion: are the instances in which you are speaking of where the Japanese characters appeared in Western fiction alongside the American characters IDW's comics? If your example is drawing from sources like "The Ascending", then isn't making examples like:
Sabrblade wrote:"Phase Six" comes from the IDW G1 comics, but has no real meaning in the cartoon continuity. Thus making it nonsensical.

a little hypocritical? If your argument is "but the Japanese characters appeared in the IDW comics! So the DVDs should follow the comics!" But then you get upset that they used something from IDW comics that wasn't in the original Japanese version, that's a little bit like the pot calling the kettle black. :lol:

Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:49 pm
by cyberwuss
Lol, I can't even keep up with the subs on mine they change so rapidly so I am just watching the show through without paying any mind to the subs then maybe I'll have a sub reading watch later. I'll pick up enough story from the episode guides but don't get me started on all the different sub versions and how accurate they are. I might have taken offense at hasbro/shout! if I had seen all of the other dubs and subs but as it stands I think I'll just treat each different sub as its own universe haha. This will be Shout! Headmasters. So far I haven't been disappointed in it just because I've ignored the subs like I said. I think the only way you could really enjoy it to the fullest would be to learn japanese well enough to follow without subtitles at all. Anyway, the main reason I don't mind alot being lost in translation is because japanese stuff always comes up with crazy stupid names. Look at something as well known as say DBZ. Half of them are named after vegetables or food items and they have two of the leading characters names as "bra" and "trunks" I would rather it was translated into english as "trunks"="that guy with the purple and silver hair". In short if you have to redo names anyway you might as well make them sound less off the wall than half of the japanese stuff is and let it be lost in translation. Also I'm not sure how true it is but on wikipedia I was reading episode summary stuff and they mentioned that no dub/sub so far has been very accurate to what the original japanese is, so ya it might be different from the others but I don't really see how it can be artistic whatever you called it :p. I will have to treat it as a different universe anyway just because it has no Peter Cullen or other famous Americanized Optimus Prime in it to speak great lines. So far I've only watched the first ep but it was pretty cool on the action and as long as I can pick up a little of what is happening its cool with me. All I got of the story from ep 1 was that they changed rebirth from american g1 to be where all the headmasters just sort of showed up, galvatron took over vector sigma and made alot of decepticons, optimus prime and the other autobots held out against them, suddenly fortmax shows up and runs off the bad guys until next time. The one thing I'm not sure you guys mentioned though is the end credit song. The translation to that is just hilarious and I think it is probably accurate haha. I'm still probly gonna support shout! and hasbro teaming up just because they've brought us so many great DVD packs. If they ever get animated season 3 out I will be brand loyal for life.

Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:13 pm
by Sabrblade
TriPredRavage wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:I can probably get passed some of the Americanized name changes (such as those for The Headmasters series characters and Deszaras/Deathsaurus), but the rest are unique characters who have their own separate identities from their American counterparts. Why, even some of them have made appearances in Western media under their original names.
Okay, here's an important matter in this aspect of our discussion: are the instances in which you are speaking of where the Japanese characters appeared in Western fiction alongside the American characters IDW's comics? If your example is drawing from sources like "The Ascending", then isn't making examples like:
Sabrblade wrote:"Phase Six" comes from the IDW G1 comics, but has no real meaning in the cartoon continuity. Thus making it nonsensical.

a little hypocritical? If your argument is "but the Japanese characters appeared in the IDW comics! So the DVDs should follow the comics!" But then you get upset that they used something from IDW comics that wasn't in the original Japanese version, that's a little bit like the pot calling the kettle black. :lol:
That's different. These character originated here and were carried over into the IDW and Fun Pub material. The "Phase Six" phrase, however, originated in the IDW comics and makes no sense in the context in which it is used here in these subs.

The characters I mostly don't want to use Westernized names are the (Autobot) Pretenders, Headmaster Juniors and Godmasters. I am glad that at least Ginrai and Minerva will keep their names intact, but I fear for what may happen with the others.

Plus, I think a lot of Doubledealer fans would be pretty ticked off if Clouder used that name, given how popular the Western incarnation of him is. ;)

Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:28 pm
by Sabrblade
cyberwuss wrote:Anyway, the main reason I don't mind alot being lost in translation is because japanese stuff always comes up with crazy stupid names.
"Different" =/= "stupid". That's just mean.

cyberwuss wrote:Look at something as well known as say DBZ. Half of them are named after vegetables or food items and they have two of the leading characters names as "bra" and "trunks"
"Bulma", not "Bra". :roll:

cyberwuss wrote:Also I'm not sure how true it is but on wikipedia I was reading episode summary stuff and they mentioned that no dub/sub so far has been very accurate to what the original japanese is, so ya it might be different from the others but I don't really see how it can be artistic whatever you called it :p.
While TV-Nihon did have a few translation mess ups, they did at least try to adhere to the original dialogue as best they could; and they did improve in the accuracy over time. And with Metrodome and Madman, most of their errors are spelling/grammar errors that were the fault of an issue with the production staff.

cyberwuss wrote:I will have to treat it as a different universe anyway just because it has no Peter Cullen or other famous Americanized Optimus Prime in it to speak great lines.
Of course. After all, this is the Japanese cartoon conituity and not the American cartoon continuity. For us, The Rebirth is canon. for them, The Headmasters is canon instead. For us, the leader of the Autobots is Optimus Prime. For them, the leader of the Cybertrons is Convoy. Different continuity = different universe.

cyberwuss wrote:So far I've only watched the first ep but it was pretty cool on the action and as long as I can pick up a little of what is happening its cool with me. All I got of the story from ep 1 was that they changed rebirth from american g1 to be where all the headmasters just sort of showed up, galvatron took over vector sigma and made alot of decepticons, optimus prime and the other autobots held out against them, suddenly fortmax shows up and runs off the bad guys until next time.
Not... quite. Galvatron didn't take over Vector Sigma. He wanted too, but hasn't done so. The Decepticon Headmasters are recent arrivals who joined up with Galvatron's Decepticons (episode 2 explains where they came from). The Autobots are trying to stop Galvatron's forces from getting to Vector Sigma, and so Optimus leaves to go to Vector Sigma himself. With the Decepticons eventually getitng the upper hand, a giant spaceship, Battleship Maximus, appears in the sky and releases four warriors, the Autobot Headmasters, to battle the Decepticons and turn the tide in the battle.

cyberwuss wrote:The one thing I'm not sure you guys mentioned though is the end credit song. The translation to that is just hilarious and I think it is probably accurate haha.
It's called "Kimi wa Transformer" (meaning "You are a Transformer"). It's kiddie and campy and just so delightful. :lol:

cyberwuss wrote:I'm still probly gonna support shout! and hasbro teaming up just because they've brought us so many great DVD packs.
Oh, I'm still gonna support these releases. I just don't have to 100% like them.

Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:58 pm
by cyberwuss
Sabrblade wrote:
cyberwuss wrote:Anyway, the main reason I don't mind alot being lost in translation is because japanese stuff always comes up with crazy stupid names.
"Different" =/= "stupid". That's just mean.

cyberwuss wrote:Look at something as well known as say DBZ. Half of them are named after vegetables or food items and they have two of the leading characters names as "bra" and "trunks"
"Bulma", not "Bra". :roll:

cyberwuss wrote:Also I'm not sure how true it is but on wikipedia I was reading episode summary stuff and they mentioned that no dub/sub so far has been very accurate to what the original japanese is, so ya it might be different from the others but I don't really see how it can be artistic whatever you called it :p.
While TV-Nihon did have a few translation mess ups, they did at least try to adhere to the original dialogue as best they could; and they did improve in the accuracy over time. And with Metrodome and Madman, most of their errors are spelling/grammar errors that were the fault of an issue with the production staff.

cyberwuss wrote:I will have to treat it as a different universe anyway just because it has no Peter Cullen or other famous Americanized Optimus Prime in it to speak great lines.
Of course. After all, this is the Japanese cartoon conituity and not the American cartoon continuity. For us, The Rebirth is canon. for them, The Headmasters is canon instead. For us, the leader of the Autobots is Optimus Prime. For them, the leader of the Cybertrons is Convoy. Different continuity = different universe.

cyberwuss wrote:So far I've only watched the first ep but it was pretty cool on the action and as long as I can pick up a little of what is happening its cool with me. All I got of the story from ep 1 was that they changed rebirth from american g1 to be where all the headmasters just sort of showed up, galvatron took over vector sigma and made alot of decepticons, optimus prime and the other autobots held out against them, suddenly fortmax shows up and runs off the bad guys until next time.
Not... quite. Galvatron didn't take over Vector Sigma. He wanted too, but hasn't done so. The Decepticon Headmasters are recent arrivals who joined up with Galvatron's Decepticons (episode 2 explains where they came from). The Autobots are trying to stop Galvatron's forces from getting to Vector Sigma, and so Optimus leaves to go to Vector Sigma himself. With the Decepticons eventually getitng the upper hand, a giant spaceship, Battleship Maximus, appears in the sky and releases four warriors, the Autobot Headmasters, to battle the Decepticons and turn the tide in the battle.

cyberwuss wrote:The one thing I'm not sure you guys mentioned though is the end credit song. The translation to that is just hilarious and I think it is probably accurate haha.
It's called "Kimi wa Transformer" (meaning "You are a Transformer"). It's kiddie and campy and just so delightful. :lol:

cyberwuss wrote:I'm still probly gonna support shout! and hasbro teaming up just because they've brought us so many great DVD packs.
Oh, I'm still gonna support these releases. I just don't have to 100% like them.


There really is a character named "bra", it is Bulma's daughter/trunks' sister. :p Also I wasn't trying to be mean with my "stupid" comment on the name translation, just saying that most of the time its something that doesnt make much sense to americans :>

Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:11 pm
by TriPredRavage
cyberwuss wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
cyberwuss wrote:Look at something as well known as say DBZ. Half of them are named after vegetables or food items and they have two of the leading characters names as "bra" and "trunks"
"Bulma", not "Bra". :roll:
There really is a character named "bra", it is Bulma's daughter/trunks' sister. :p

Right. Cyberwuss is referring to Vegeta and Bulma's daughter Bra, whose name was changed to Bulla in the English dubs. BTW, Bulma's name is supposed to be "Bloomer(s)" to fit in with the whole clothing naming thing that the Briefs family had. I guess it was okay for them to name characters after male underwear, but as soon as they had the names of women's underwear (despite Oolong's first wish on the Dragon Balls), that just had to go.