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Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

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Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:06 am

TriPredRavage wrote:
cyberwuss wrote:There really is a character named "bra", it is Bulma's daughter/trunks' sister. :p

Right. Cyberwuss is referring to Vegeta and Bulma's daughter Bra, whose name was changed to Bulla in the English dubs.
Well, I'm not that far in the series yet.

TriPredRavage wrote:BTW, Bulma's name is supposed to be "Bloomer(s)" to fit in with the whole clothing naming thing that the Briefs family had. I guess it was okay for them to name characters after male underwear, but as soon as they had the names of women's underwear (despite Oolong's first wish on the Dragon Balls), that just had to go.
Well, she's "Buruma" to the Japanese, but I guess even they still transliterate her name as "Bulma" seeing as how the subtitled DVDs do so while subbing Krillin as "Kuririn", Launch as "Lunch", Tien as "Tenshinhan" etc.

To get back on topic,
cyberwuss wrote:Also I wasn't trying to be mean with my "stupid" comment on the name translation, just saying that most of the time its something that doesnt make much sense to americans :>
Which is why the market for Japanese subtitled anime DVDs is not so wide that any average American Joe can just pick up a copy, start watching, and get the full experience out of it so easily. The audience for these sets is a niche group, one who doesn't find the foreign nature of these to be "stupid" or "not make much sense". Hasbro and Shout! need to understand that these shows were not meant for the general Western audience, and only those die hard fans and anime enthusiasts are going to be the primary audience for these sets.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

Postby TriPredRavage » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:56 am

Sabrblade wrote:Well, I'm not that far in the series yet.
Regardless, your rolling eyes post was rather arrogant and insinuated that cyberwuss didn't know what he was talking about, when you were in fact ignorant to the existence of the character he was speaking of.

Sabrblade wrote:Well, she's "Buruma" to the Japanese, but I guess even they still transliterate her name as "Bulma" seeing as how the subtitled DVDs do so while subbing Krillin as "Kuririn", Launch as "Lunch", Tien as "Tenshinhan" etc.
As far as all of this goes, her name is still Bloomer. Buruma is very clearly the katakana (I believe it's katakana that does this) version of the word Bloomer. And beyond that, even if it weren't a direct adaptation of the name Dragon Ball is notorious for deriving characters' names from other words (i.e. Recoome is derived from an anagram of the word "cream," believe it or not).

Sabrblade wrote:Which is why the market for Japanese subtitled anime DVDs is not so wide that any average American Joe can just pick up a copy, start watching, and get the full experience out of it so easily. The audience for these sets is a niche group, one who doesn't find the foreign nature of these to be "stupid" or "not make much sense". Hasbro and Shout! need to understand that these shows were not meant for the general Western audience, and only those die hard fans and anime enthusiasts are going to be the primary audience for these sets.
This is where I think you're off here, Sabr. Do the DVDs initially appeal to a specific niche market? Absolutely. But I think they've made these changes with the intent of appealing to as wide of a market as they can. Because here's the rub, I fall into that niche category that you are talking about, and I do find a lot of the nature of these series to be "stupid" or "not make sense." But that's the product of the Japanese Transformers having a really low maturity level. Now, like I said, a lot of the changes they made, I'm okay with, and a lot are really unacceptable. It's almost like they were trying to script for a dub more than a sub, but I digress. I just think they're trying to reach as wide of a market as they can. They've already reached that niche, now they want to reach more of the nostalgia crowd.
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Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:05 am

TriPredRavage wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Well, I'm not that far in the series yet.
Regardless, your rolling eyes post was rather arrogant and insinuated that cyberwuss didn't know what he was talking about, when you were in fact ignorant to the existence of the character he was speaking of.
When I " :roll: ", it's more along the lines of a mild chuckle, not a sign of irritation. The face is smiling as its eyes roll anyway, as though it were in a good mood.

TriPredRavage wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Well, she's "Buruma" to the Japanese, but I guess even they still transliterate her name as "Bulma" seeing as how the subtitled DVDs do so while subbing Krillin as "Kuririn", Launch as "Lunch", Tien as "Tenshinhan" etc.
As far as all of this goes, her name is still Bloomer. Buruma is very clearly the katakana (I believe it's katakana that does this) version of the word Bloomer. And beyond that, even if it weren't a direct adaptation of the name Dragon Ball is notorious for deriving characters' names from other words (i.e. Recoome is derived from an anagram of the word "cream," believe it or not).
I'm saying her name is officially spelled "Bulma" even in the Japanese version. It may be a pun on "bloomer", but her name isn't actually "Bloomer".

Though, yeah, ReaCoom from "cream" makes sense. :lol:

TriPredRavage wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Which is why the market for Japanese subtitled anime DVDs is not so wide that any average American Joe can just pick up a copy, start watching, and get the full experience out of it so easily. The audience for these sets is a niche group, one who doesn't find the foreign nature of these to be "stupid" or "not make much sense". Hasbro and Shout! need to understand that these shows were not meant for the general Western audience, and only those die hard fans and anime enthusiasts are going to be the primary audience for these sets.
This is where I think you're off here, Sabr. Do the DVDs initially appeal to a specific niche market? Absolutely. But I think they've made these changes with the intent of appealing to as wide of a market as they can. Because here's the rub, I fall into that niche category that you are talking about, and I do find a lot of the nature of these series to be "stupid" or "not make sense." But that's the product of the Japanese Transformers having a really low maturity level. Now, like I said, a lot of the changes they made, I'm okay with, and a lot are really unacceptable. It's almost like they were trying to script for a dub more than a sub, but I digress. I just think they're trying to reach as wide of a market as they can. They've already reached that niche, now they want to reach more of the nostalgia crowd.
But no matter how wide they try to make these reach, they simply won't reach as wide as the general American audience. Only those who can adjust to or already are adjusted to reading subtitles while watching anime will be the ones viewing these DVDs. Hasbro/Shout! made a lot of these changes to appeal to little kids, as they are the primary target audience of the franchise, but most little kids don't watch subbed anime. The market for sub-only anime DVDs consists of the young adults (not children) who grew up on anime as children during the anime boom of the 80s/90s/early 2000s. And that number is still niche compared to the amount of kids who prefer dubbed anime over subbed. More likely than not, the group that these sets will appeal the most will be the older-aged geek and nerd audiences like us. A good number of these changes are completely unnecessary because the people who Hasbro/Shout! are trying to reach won't even be watching them. When it comes to kids, dubs > subs.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

Postby TriPredRavage » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:24 pm

Sabrblade wrote:But no matter how wide they try to make these reach, they simply won't reach as wide as the general American audience. Only those who can adjust to or already are adjusted to reading subtitles while watching anime will be the ones viewing these DVDs. Hasbro/Shout! made a lot of these changes to appeal to little kids, as they are the primary target audience of the franchise, but most little kids don't watch subbed anime. The market for sub-only anime DVDs consists of the young adults (not children) who grew up on anime as children during the anime boom of the 80s/90s/early 2000s. And that number is still niche compared to the amount of kids who prefer dubbed anime over subbed. More likely than not, the group that these sets will appeal the most will be the older-aged geek and nerd audiences like us. A good number of these changes are completely unnecessary because the people who Hasbro/Shout! are trying to reach won't even be watching them. When it comes to kids, dubs > subs.

So you're saying they shouldn't have even tried, then?
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Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:30 pm

TriPredRavage wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:But no matter how wide they try to make these reach, they simply won't reach as wide as the general American audience. Only those who can adjust to or already are adjusted to reading subtitles while watching anime will be the ones viewing these DVDs. Hasbro/Shout! made a lot of these changes to appeal to little kids, as they are the primary target audience of the franchise, but most little kids don't watch subbed anime. The market for sub-only anime DVDs consists of the young adults (not children) who grew up on anime as children during the anime boom of the 80s/90s/early 2000s. And that number is still niche compared to the amount of kids who prefer dubbed anime over subbed. More likely than not, the group that these sets will appeal the most will be the older-aged geek and nerd audiences like us. A good number of these changes are completely unnecessary because the people who Hasbro/Shout! are trying to reach won't even be watching them. When it comes to kids, dubs > subs.

So you're saying they shouldn't have even tried, then?
I'm saying that had they instead tried to cater to the people who would be interested in these series, rather than those who wouldn't, they wouldn't have had to make all these unnecessary TF lingo/watered down script changes.

If there are some things in these series that are deemed inappropriate for kids, there's little need to worry since kids won't be watching these.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

Postby TriPredRavage » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:56 pm

Sabrblade wrote:I'm saying that had they instead tried to cater to the people who would be interested in these series, rather than those who wouldn't, they wouldn't have had to make all these unnecessary TF lingo/watered down script changes.

If there are some things in these series that are deemed inappropriate for kids, there's little need to worry since kids won't be watching these.
It's an interesting point.

I actually think they tried to appeal to more than just little kids and their niche market. I think they threw in the lingo for diehard fans, and changed dialogue and such to appeal to the older generation of fans (i.e. people who were consciously aware of G1 when it was new). You have to figure, on top of appealing to the anime generation, Headmasters, more than Masterforce and Victory, should appeal to people who grew up on G1, but may not be as big of fanatics as we are. So maybe by throwing in typoed phrases like "light out darkest hour" is intended to evoke nostalgia in them. Maybe they've just stretched themselves too thin on this one.
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Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:00 pm

TriPredRavage wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:I'm saying that had they instead tried to cater to the people who would be interested in these series, rather than those who wouldn't, they wouldn't have had to make all these unnecessary TF lingo/watered down script changes.

If there are some things in these series that are deemed inappropriate for kids, there's little need to worry since kids won't be watching these.
It's an interesting point.

I actually think they tried to appeal to more than just little kids and their niche market. I think they threw in the lingo for diehard fans, and changed dialogue and such to appeal to the older generation of fans (i.e. people who were consciously aware of G1 when it was new). You have to figure, on top of appealing to the anime generation, Headmasters, more than Masterforce and Victory, should appeal to people who grew up on G1, but may not be as big of fanatics as we are. So maybe by throwing in typoed phrases like "light out darkest hour" is intended to evoke nostalgia in them. Maybe they've just stretched themselves too thin on this one.
Yes, but that's also like saying that the dialogue isn't good enough as it is. Shouldn't it be judged by its own merit rather than try to make it look more like the U.S. fiction than it needs to be?
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“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

Postby TriPredRavage » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:06 pm

Sabrblade wrote:Yes, but that's also like saying that the dialogue isn't good enough as it is. Shouldn't it be judged by its own merit rather than try to make it look more like the U.S. fiction than it needs to be?

Like I said before, I disagree with the decision. If it were a dub, that'd be a different case, but a sub, by its merit, is supposed to be accurate to what is being said. I'm just trying to rationalize why they did it is all.
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Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

Postby Agent X » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:27 am

I partily agree with both Saberblade and Ironrod

Ironrod in that we should be thankful for a US release

Saberblade in that this was not the best translation. I known some japanese to pick up on a few bad spots.

The Name changes were to be expected but the terminology changes were not. Yes, Phase Six was unexpected.

Also i have to note that DBZ was brought up on these last few pages. DBZ itself didn't have the best translation either, however the rerelease as DBZ Kai has a translation that is closer to the Japanese script. So it is possible years from now a diferent company might have the distribution rights and do a better translation.
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Re: Irritated with Hasbro and Shout! Factory >:(

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:55 pm

Agent X wrote:Ironrod in that we should be thankful for a US release
Oh, yes, I am thankful that we finally got these in the U.S. But that isn't to say that I don't think there could have been improvement. I'm pleased that we did get them, just not with HOW we got them.

Agent X wrote:The Name changes were to be expected but the terminology changes were not. Yes, Phase Six was unexpected.
Fortress was really the only name I wanted kept, since Metrodome and Madman kept it. I mean, using "Cerebros" removes the whole notion that "Fortress Maximus" is the ultimate form achieved by the unison of "Fortress" and "Maximus".

Agent X wrote:Also i have to note that DBZ was brought up on these last few pages. DBZ itself didn't have the best translation either, however the rerelease as DBZ Kai has a translation that is closer to the Japanese script. So it is possible years from now a diferent company might have the distribution rights and do a better translation.
Oh, yes. Dragon Ball Kai's dub (or at least, its uncut DVD dub and its slightly edited Nicktoons dub, but not its Toonzai dub) is superbly amazing! I love it! While I cannot watch any of the old DBZ dubs without laughing or cringing, I can watch Kai's dub and enjoy it supremely. :D

TriPredRavage wrote:First and foremost, before I really throw my hat into the ring here, can we talk about how all of this:
Sabrblade wrote:And what's more, this isn't the only case of this kind of change. Fortress was given the name "Cerebros" in the subs, when he is an entirely different identity from G1 Cerebros. He's as much Cerebros as Ginrai is Optimus.
Sabrblade wrote:They're gonna be using the English names for characters in Masterforce who are entirely different characters from their American counterparts. Like, the Decepticon Pretenders Blood, Gilmer, and Dauros are gonna be subbed as "Bomb-Burst", "Submarauder", and "Skullgrin". Though they said that some like Ginrai and Minerva (who do have Western counterparts) will be keeping their Japanese names, but there's no telling where they'll draw the line with the others. :(
Sabrblade wrote:And they're renaming the Godmasters as being "Powermasters", which is an entirely different concept whose only similarity lies within aesthetics rather than function. #-o

For Victory, Deszaras is using his "Deathsaurus" name, which is still irksome considering how he's not even a dragon or dinosaur! He's a bird kaiju!
is like MY fanboy dream and your fanboy nightmare? I mean, how many times have you and I bickered and fought, and berated each other over the very argument of the Japanese and English characters and terms being interchangable? I was honestly dreading these DVD releases simply for the fact that I thought for sure they were going to be completely faithful to the Japanese versions and stick to all of the characters' names. Seeing all of this almost makes me interested in if Shout!Factory will release subtitled versions of Beast Wars II and Beast Wars Neo. ALMOST... :lol:
In addition to what I said about this before, there's also the matter that several of these Japanese characters who have Western counterparts appeared BEFORE their Western cartoon counterparts did.

I'll use Fort Max and Scorponok for examples.

  • Fortress Maximus' first ever fictional debut was in Headmasters #1 from Marvel Comics, way back in March 1987. Cerebros didn't appear until The Transformers #38 in November 1987, where he was just a lifeless body that acted as a stepping stone between Spike/Galen and the larger (and alive) Fort Max body.
  • For the cartoon, Cerebros first appeared in "The Rebirth, Part 1" on November 9, 1987. Fort Max's cartoon debut was in "The Rebirth, Part 3" on November 11, 1987. Notice that there was an eight month gap between Fort Max's comic debut and either debut of Cerebros.
  • Fortress (the Japanese counterpart of Cerebros) first appeared in episode 2 of The Headmasters on July 10, 1987, four months ahead of either of Cerebros' appearances.
  • His battleship, Maximus, appeared in the previous first episode on July 3, 1987.
  • The two didn't combine into "Fortress Maximus" until episode 13 on October 2, 1987 (though, Fortress had previously revealed his "head mode" back in episode 5 on July 31, 1987).
  • However, in a reverse of the Marvel Comic portrayal, the larger Fort Max body was a lifeless vessel, while the smaller head body was the sentient mind of the being. And since both versions precede the cartoon version's debut, Fortress of The Headmasters had his own personality before Cerebros of the G1 cartoon (whereas comic Cerebros never had a personality, instead having Galen/Spike speaking through Cerebros as themselves).
  • With Scorponok, since Zarak (nor any of the other Nebulon Headmasters) doesn't exist in The Headmasters, we'll only look at the fully robotic Decepticon.
  • Scorponok's first appearance in fiction was also in Marvel Comics' Headmasters #1 in March 1987.
  • His first appearance in the cartoon was in "The Rebirth, Part 3" on November 11, 1987, again, eight months later.
  • However, like Fort Max, the Japanese did a reverse to the comic portrayal by having the scorpion body be lifeless and the head be the real Scorponok.
  • Scorponok (the smaller head robot) wasn't initially revealed and only had hints leading up to his true reveal. A flashback showing what would later be his MegaZarak Transtector in silhouette was seen in episode 2 of The Headmasters on July 10, 1987.
  • He himself first appeared (cast in shadow) in episode 7 on August 28, 1987.
  • His Transtector was more formally seen (albeit still in shadow) in episode 11 on September 18, 1987.
  • Scorponok and his larger form of MegaZarak were both finally seen fully in episode 15 on October 16, 1987. And yet, this was still about a month before his Western cartoon debut.
Since the portrayals of these two in The Headmasters precedes their portrayals in the G1 cartoon, why should they be changed for these subbed DVDs to reflect versions that came after these ones were already established first (cartoon-wise)?
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