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When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

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When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby bowspearer » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:44 pm

Ok so we all know that G1 started out as being reuses of Takara, Toybox and Takatoku designs (plus Shockwave of course) ruling out the first 2 years of the toyline as being original.

Then you have the fact that the entire Scramble City subline was repurposed (which may or may not include Trypticon), the fact that Skylynx was a Toybox design, the fact that Magnus was a mecha variation on Battle Convoy and the fact that the entire '86 minicar line were retools of the 84 line so they're discounted too.

Then there are the Triple Changer where we know that as 1985 proves, at least Astrotrain was an unreleased Diaclone design, suggesting the other 4 may well have been too.

The Cassettes are a similar story. It's pretty obvious that Ratbat was an unreleased Microochange design due to the similarities between him and the Buzz'/'beak design, and the fact that despite the slightly different designs of the Autobot Cassettes - the style of at least Steeljaw is very similar to Ravage.

If that then rules out the cassettes; that leaves 12 Transformers unaccounted for in the 86 toyline: the 3 Autobot Cars, Rodimus Prime, Scourge and Cyclonus, the Predacons and Galvatron?

So then the question is- were any of these original designs to Transformers, or was it not until 1987 that we actually saw "real" Transformers toys instead of authorised bootlegs (for want of a better term)?

If anyone has any idea on this, I'd appreciate the input.
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:13 pm

bowspearer wrote:Ok so we all know that G1 started out as being reuses of Takara, Toybox and Takatoku designs (plus Shockwave of course)
And Micro Change designs too.

bowspearer wrote:and the fact that the entire '86 minicar line were retools of the 84 line so they're discounted too.
Excluding Wheelie. His was new toy mold.

bowspearer wrote:Then there are the Triple Changer where we know that as 1985 proves, at least Astrotrain was an unreleased Diaclone design, suggesting the other 4 may well have been too.
Blitwing was a Diaclone mold. Astrotrain was possibly also developed for Diaclone at the time Takara switched over to the Transformers brand, but his toy was definitely first released as a Transformer.

As for Springer, Sandstorm, Broadside, and Octane, all four were new molds made specifically for Transformers.

bowspearer wrote:The Cassettes are a similar story. It's pretty obvious that Ratbat was an unreleased Microochange design due to the similarities between him and the Buzz'/'beak design, and the fact that despite the slightly different designs of the Autobot Cassettes - the style of at least Steeljaw is very similar to Ravage.
The 1987 cassettes were new designs made specifically for Transformers. Any simialrities between them and existing molds from '84/'85 might indicate that the designs of these new molds used similar engineering to the old molds (after all, Takara did make them both).

bowspearer wrote:So then the question is- were any of these original designs to Transformers, or was it not until 1987 that we actually saw "real" Transformers toys instead of authorised bootlegs (for want of a better term)?

If anyone has any idea on this, I'd appreciate the input.
1986 saw the first TF-original molds due to the design process then having reverse from that 1984-1985. Instead of creating character designs from existing toy molds, the character designs were now being made first, and so led to the toys being designed after them instead of vice-versa.

The new toy designs that didn't exist in a previous toy line in 1986 were the following:
    Wheelie
    Rewind/Eject
    Steeljaw
    Ramhorn
    Springer
    Broadside
    Sandstorm
    Blurr
    Hot Rod
    Kup
    Rodimus Prime
    Wreck-Gar
    Ratbat
    Razorclaw
    Rampage
    Headstrong
    Tantrum
    Divebomb
    Gnaw
    Octane
    Cyclonus
    Scourge
    Runabout
    Runamuck
    Galvatron
    Trypticon
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby bowspearer » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:55 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
bowspearer wrote:Ok so we all know that G1 started out as being reuses of Takara, Toybox and Takatoku designs (plus Shockwave of course)
And Micro Change designs too.


The Micro Change line was made by Takara.

Sabrblade wrote:
bowspearer wrote:and the fact that the entire '86 minicar line were retools of the 84 line so they're discounted too.
Excluding Wheelie. His was new toy mold.

bowspearer wrote:Then there are the Triple Changer where we know that as 1985 proves, at least Astrotrain was an unreleased Diaclone design, suggesting the other 4 may well have been too.
Blitwing was a Diaclone mold. Astrotrain was possibly also developed for Diaclone at the time Takara switched over to the Transformers brand, but his toy was definitely first released as a Transformer.

As for Springer, Sandstorm, Broadside, and Octane, all four were new molds made specifically for Transformers.

bowspearer wrote:The Cassettes are a similar story. It's pretty obvious that Ratbat was an unreleased Microochange design due to the similarities between him and the Buzz'/'beak design, and the fact that despite the slightly different designs of the Autobot Cassettes - the style of at least Steeljaw is very similar to Ravage.
The 1987 cassettes were new designs made specifically for Transformers. Any simialrities between them and existing molds from '84/'85 might indicate that the designs of these new molds used similar engineering to the old molds (after all, Takara did make them both).

bowspearer wrote:So then the question is- were any of these original designs to Transformers, or was it not until 1987 that we actually saw "real" Transformers toys instead of authorised bootlegs (for want of a better term)?

If anyone has any idea on this, I'd appreciate the input.
1986 saw the first TF-original molds due to the design process then having reverse from that 1984-1985. Instead of creating character designs from existing toy molds, the character designs were now being made first, and so led to the toys being designed after them instead of vice-versa.

The new toy designs that didn't exist in a previous toy line in 1986 were the following:
    Wheelie
    Rewind/Eject
    Steeljaw
    Ramhorn
    Springer
    Broadside
    Sandstorm
    Blurr
    Hot Rod
    Kup
    Rodimus Prime
    Wreck-Gar
    Ratbat
    Razorclaw
    Rampage
    Headstrong
    Tantrum
    Divebomb
    Gnaw
    Octane
    Cyclonus
    Scourge
    Runabout
    Runamuck
    Galvatron
    Trypticon


Except that this doesn't really answer the question. Just because a figure had a mold which first showed up in 86 doesn't mean that the design wasn't already in existence and originally intended for either the Diaclone or Micro Change lines. The 1987 stuff, while still being possible cases of reuses of unreleased designs, has far more time elapsed between its releases and the brand changeover by Takara. There's generally at least a 12 month window between the design and retail stages of a line. Beast Wars being in the concept stage back in 94, and from memory, Beast Machines being in the concept stage in 98, are proof of this.

What I'm actually wondering is, forgetting about what had actually made it to the sculpting and mold-casting stage; what out of those toys, had originally existed in the concept design stage, as a part of the Diaclone or Micro Change lines,
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby ironrod prime » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:04 pm

i thought the predacons were taken from another toyline do to the fact that their asthetics were so differint from the other combiners
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby bowspearer » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:27 pm

ironrod prime wrote:i thought the predacons were taken from another toyline do to the fact that their asthetics were so differint from the other combiners


Forgetting about their aesthetics though, the combination system they use is radically different than what had become standard for Takara at that time. Every other combiner team designed from 1984 and onwards that appeared in Transformers (with the one exeption of Monstructor, who still used it for half of the combination design) used the "scramble" combining design.
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:41 pm

bowspearer wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
bowspearer wrote:Ok so we all know that G1 started out as being reuses of Takara, Toybox and Takatoku designs (plus Shockwave of course)
And Micro Change designs too.


The Micro Change line was made by Takara.
Ah, my bad. I saw "Takara" and read it as "Diaclone". :oops:

bowspearer wrote:Except that this doesn't really answer the question. Just because a figure had a mold which first showed up in 86 doesn't mean that the design wasn't already in existence and originally intended for either the Diaclone or Micro Change lines.
The majority of the ones I listed were new molds make specifically for Transformers, as many of them were based on Floro Dery's designs of the movie characters instead of pre-existing non-TF designs. None of these were planned for release in any non-TF toyline. They were made with the specific intent of being Transformers toys.

Why, the Predacons were even originally designed to be an Autobot group called the Anibots, who would have appeared in the movie working under Blaster.

bowspearer wrote:The 1987 stuff, while still being possible cases of reuses of unreleased designs, has far more time elapsed between its releases and the brand changeover by Takara. There's generally at least a 12 month window between the design and retail stages of a line. Beast Wars being in the concept stage back in 94, and from memory, Beast Machines being in the concept stage in 98, are proof of this.
The only 1987 products that came from existing designs were the Japanese-only Trainbots, Soundblaster, Twincast, Stepper, and Artfire figures. Everything else was created for the Transformers toyline.

bowspearer wrote:What I'm actually wondering is, forgetting about what had actually made it to the sculpting and mold-casting stage; what out of those toys, had originally existed in the concept design stage, as a part of the Diaclone or Micro Change lines,
None of the ones I listed. Astrotrain, Metroplex, and first four combiner teams were, though.
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby bowspearer » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:20 am

Sabrblade wrote:as many of them were based on Floro Dery's designs of the movie characters instead of pre-existing non-TF designs.


Which designs are we talking about exactly because those would count as being exclusively Transformers based (I know the Quints were his for example even though they haven't seen official toy designs)?

Sabrblade wrote: None of these were planned for release in any non-TF toyline. They were made with the specific intent of being Transformers toys.

Why, the Predacons were even originally designed to be an Autobot group called the Anibots, who would have appeared in the movie working under Blaster.


But again, that doesn't really answer the question because that only deals with the post-approval stage for design concepts. I'm not talking about toys where a mold was made specifically for Transformers (which is what you're getting at); I'm talking about toys were the design stage goes right back to starting as a possible for Transformers. Look at the number of unused concept sketches for Transformers, such as the fire-truck based Super Rodimus Prime, or the wheeled mount for Megatron's scope. With everything from after the brand changeover point it becomes a moot issue; it's a completely different story for concepts done during or just before the crossover period, or in possible cases where designs may have been rejected for Pre-TF but then resubmitted and approved for TF, remembering that particularly with DIaclone and TF; they're 2 radically different concepts.

Sabrblade wrote:
bowspearer wrote:The 1987 stuff, while still being possible cases of reuses of unreleased designs, has far more time elapsed between its releases and the brand changeover by Takara. There's generally at least a 12 month window between the design and retail stages of a line. Beast Wars being in the concept stage back in 94, and from memory, Beast Machines being in the concept stage in 98, are proof of this.
The only 1987 products that came from existing designs were the Japanese-only Trainbots, Soundblaster, Twincast, Stepper, and Artfire figures. Everything else was created for the Transformers toyline.


I knew the 1987 line was when the bulk of stuff was original. I just knew the possibility was there because of those very examples.

Sabrblade wrote:
bowspearer wrote:What I'm actually wondering is, forgetting about what had actually made it to the sculpting and mold-casting stage; what out of those toys, had originally existed in the concept design stage, as a part of the Diaclone or Micro Change lines,
None of the ones I listed. Astrotrain, Metroplex, and first four combiner teams were, though.
[/quote]

When were the others initially done as design concepts (not even as sculpts) compared to when Takara did the brand changeover?
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:34 am

Okay, if we're on two different pages here, I think we need to figure out what's what here. what is it specifically you're looking for here? Transformers toys that were never originally meant for any non-TF toyline in any design stage, or something else?
"When there's gold feathers, punch behind you!!"

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” -- C.S. Lewis
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby bowspearer » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:31 am

Sabrblade wrote:Okay, if we're on two different pages here, I think we need to figure out what's what here. what is it specifically you're looking for here? Transformers toys that were never originally meant for any non-TF toyline in any design stage, or something else?


Ok, here's specifically what I'm wondering. When Takara shut down the Diaclone and Microchange lines, other toy designs were in the works at various stages - some being at a sculpting stage, while others were either in the process of being designed as concept sketches, had been done as concept sketches and were awaiting approval or had been rejected. In all of those cases, those designs can be considered to be intended for Diaclone or Micro Change and not Transformers - even if the sculpting stage of a concept was begun after the brand name changeover by Takara.

We know in at least the cases of Scramble City; there were unproduced toys for the Diaclone line that showed up in the Transformers toyline.

So in was it in 1986 or 1987 that we saw the first toys which had been fully intended to be Transformers, going right beck to the intial concept artwork stage? If it was 1986, which toys were they?
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Re: When did we get the first "real" Transformers?

Postby ironrod prime » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:00 am

werent the headmasters and targetmasters original desighns also the monsterbots and pretenders
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